Author Topic:  Survival/Dig Deep Overhaul  (Read 5683 times)

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Rev Elevenclaw

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Re: Survival/Dig Deep Overhaul
« Reply #30 on: January 16, 2016, 12:11:25 PM »
I still have a DD moon map, but it is kinda glitches. I would share it. I was setting it up for hosting before I built the 1 I host now.
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Nefty

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Re: Survival/Dig Deep Overhaul
« Reply #31 on: January 18, 2016, 10:46:46 AM »
I have something else to add. I sort of kind of touched on it in the caving portion of the OP. What TM lacks is a bunch of ores. Not in game, but where they spawn. There are very few ores within the caves, ive seen more salt than anything. One of my favorite thing to do in Minecraft is go collect massive amounts of Iron, Gold, and Diamond. TM has like 16 more ores than Minecraft (I don't know the exact number) imagine being able to mine all of those, rather than go 3000 blocks down!
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Re: Survival/Dig Deep Overhaul
« Reply #32 on: January 18, 2016, 03:27:16 PM »
I have something else to add. I sort of kind of touched on it in the caving portion of the OP. What TM lacks is a bunch of ores. Not in game, but where they spawn. There are very few ores within the caves, ive seen more salt than anything. One of my favorite thing to do in Minecraft is go collect massive amounts of Iron, Gold, and Diamond. TM has like 16 more ores than Minecraft (I don't know the exact number) imagine being able to mine all of those, rather than go 3000 blocks down!

I'd like to see more ores, but of the same tier (like duplicate items or slightly altered stats but still equivalent to another. similar to how terraria does it). I think, from a progression standpoint, the player progresses at a pretty good rate as it is already.


               

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Re: Survival/Dig Deep Overhaul
« Reply #33 on: January 18, 2016, 07:00:33 PM »
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-Alright its going to take me awhile to get my argument across, but id ask you read it completely before you comment. Obviously not everyone is going to agree with this idea/opinion, and i'd love feedback. Please don't fill the thread with +1 -1's cause they aren't helpful. I will also be comparing Survival and Dig Deep to Minecraft, a lot. I know a lot of members of the forums don't like having TM compared to Minecraft, but its one of the few games that is the same if not better than TM in a direct comparison. I'd also like to apologize for any spelling/grammar mistakes in advance. With that said, lets get into this.

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Alright, so from the title you can tell I am petitioning (if you can call it that) for a complete and utter overhaul of the survival and dig deep game modes of the game. Yes I know those are major changes, but I will tell you why in just a moment.

#1) For me survival is way way way too easy. #1 reason being the economy, the block shops, the item shops. The ability to mine X amounts of a certain block to buy a picaxe/tool. The point is that the economy of TM destroys the entire aspect of crafting/smelting. Minecrafts survival mode is based of of leveling up though tiers of tools (wood mines stone, stone mines iron, iron mines diamond, etc...) and causes you to immerse yourself into the gameplay. Total Miner however does no such thing. At some point, you build a square wooden house, mine a bunch of trees, and start making ladders, selling them, making more, and then repeat. After 30 minutes of doing nothing in game but pressing 5 buttons, you have amassed enough coin to purchase a picaxe or other high tool that would've taken hours to get through actual gameplay. Just Youtube it, there are so many exploits on the economic system in TM. Now before you go off saying "but Nefty, the gold pieces are important to TM, they make it unique" Absolutely. My counter argument is that prices should be jacked way way up. Make it so that actually playing the game you payed $3 for is faster and easier than standing behind a single block for half an hour. Look at deathmatches (yes im using a deathmatch to make my point). You cant stand by the block/item shops and sell your way to the top like it was the NASDAQ, you have to play the map. While most make you mindlessly mine blocks, the vanilla version of TM could improve on that. Adventure for treasure chests is already a large part of it. By making ores and other precious blocks easier to be obtained when going caving, it gives the player the need, no, the want to go caving.
I disagree, because I have played my fair share of BOTH games. While Survival can be a bit more fun on MC, it lacks an economic system as far as pricing per item/block. You need villagers for an economy, setting up that is difficult enough as is. Let's say you start a map and make your entire empire on there. HOURS of grinding, only to find out...you have NO villages. And it has happened to me before, or even worse...only one villager. Then you are screwed. Even more so if you have a difficulty on. Zombies could obliterate that entire village before you even find them. TMF has an economic system that is convenient. Albeit, some may say it's easy...well yes, if you are smart enough to use certain key items/tricks to make cash. But even so, the better stuff on the market cost A LOT and quickly drains that fortune you so lovingly amassed earlier. To be fair, both games economy is messed up to a degree. One day, that may be fixed. But I still prefer TMF over MC sometimes.

#2) Biome generation is flawed. I don't know much about the hardware or technology behind it, but choosing one biome to play your map in is a complete disappointment. Biome generation is iffy, with the exception of Desert which I love, but when you're stuck in one biome your entire experience it dulls down the excitement. Imagine playing CoD multiplayer on one map! Once again where Minecraft flourish, the ability to make villages and other structures to exclusive to certain biomes when playing was awesome! I always had a desert and snow castle when I played. Anyway, point is, multiple Biomes per map would make Survival/DD experience so much more enjoyable.
I do agree, but I find that the biomes are suitable for me. I think, sometimes, Minecraft can OVER-DO biomes and make them too....bizarre. But I have to throw in my agreement on this one.

#3) Those pesky pesky blue prints. Now I actually love blue prints, very interesting take on the game mode. My problem comes with their spawn. When you spend most of your gameplay experience running around looking for blue prints, it takes away from the overall fun. Its rather annoying when you are trying to craft/build and then you don't have the blue print, so you spend endless amount of time looking for that one blueprint, only to find a "steel claymore." I get it that its part of the experience, but how many players actually want to roam around looking for them? They're the only reason I would ever go down in caves in DD, because like I said in #1, and I will talking about caves soon. I would counter with a different idea for researching items. Almost like a blue print, however you have to have a set of items crafted. For instance to craft an Iron Pc, you need to have made a Wood Pic, Wood Axe, maybe like a Wood Bow? Basically so its not just wham bam thank you ma'am now I know how to make a.... "iron hoe?" Well that's not useful.
Understandable, but that's the price you pay for DD. I personally LOVE IT. I revel in the fun of hunting down that next blueprint, hoping it's a new pickaxe or something else of great importance. While it's not for everyone, it does give the game mode a challenge not seen in other voxel games.

#4) Caves. Minecrafts caves are glorious. Caves upon caves running into more caves dropping into ravines with lava. TM, well not so much. Caves are most often one giant pathway, very rarely running into each other. Not to mention the ugly pools of water and lava that still dot the caverns, they make no sense now that there is water physics. Ores are few and far between, and without your Map HUD on good luck find a substantial amount. And they also end abruptly, oh you were getting interested? Getting to Diorite level? Congrats, for all that time you spent moving forward, you have achieved nothing. Caverns need to have more ores, more diversity, more excitement. The game is called Total Miner yet has very few amounts of mining going on.
Well, in MC you don't even have a map to help you find more ores within the earth. But I disagree, while there is a nice variety of cave systems in MC I enjoy the type of caves in TMF are fun to explore. Some expand into different systems with chests, others just go further down and wrap back around. That's the fun of Dig Deep. The cave systems are much better in that mode. Even so, the deeper you go, the more ores you find as well. It all almost seems to be based on chance. But I remember being in Marble layers and finding a large amount of Platinum and such.

#5) Skills. What was once the Titanic on paper, turned into well, the titanic in game. Skills went from a great way to introduce RPG maps in a more effective way, and to add another challenge to Survival based game modes, turned into hours of grinding. When they came out I taped my controller down in various locations and went to chipotle with my friends, came back and I was a level 5 miner. Point in case, Skill revamp. I know they're not mandatory, and if you don't want to grind for hours don't play with it on. Except, I like the extra challenge of having to had mined a certain amount to get the next series of tools. This could even tie into what I said in step 3 with researching, maybe need a certain skill level to research new tools. Anyway, I fell as if things are too spaced out in skills, too far of jumps between tools and blocks. Skills should challenge, yet compliment the player. Not force them into hours of grinding away.
Well with the re-vamp that's what happens. Before hand it was a bit few and far between in which you had to jump to get to the next tier of tools and weapons. Even so, it's pretty decent thus far. It helps expand the levels into different blocks and other items. Before you had no reason to level past 60-70. Now the levels require you to get to almost 100 to use EVERYTHING. Pretty useful way to fill in the void.

#6) Biome Generation: The Sequel. This portion I will be discussing individual biomes. I have no problems with Desert, if anyone does please feel free to post them. Semi-Alpine is an average biome. The beaches surrounding the lakes are just ugly, they're usually 1-2 blocks wide and just fit right. And they land mass always falls the water level perfectly, no ledges, no cliffs, nothing. The landscape if very smooth, and I really don't like it. Another thing I cant stand is in grasslands, the landscape of pure grass is just ugly as well. I guess with multiple biomes per map it could look better, but it looks awful. "But Nefty, its grasslands, shouldn't it all be grass." You're absolutely right! But even the great plains have variations. The lakes/ponds especially are ugly, 1-3 blocks deep and always small just bugs me. The point Im making is to add more variation to Biome Generation.
This one is, more or less, based on opinion. I suppose it could be better but I don't see the problem with it. At least it doesn't spawn floating landmasses. lol

#7) Those damned Trees. Trees look great, especially from the new update. But when you mine all the woods blocks, the leaves remain in the same spot! It looks awful seeing flying leaves everywhere! Then the shaded grass....? You cut down a tree, and remove its leaves, yet the grass remains shaded? The texture on all 4 main textures look awful, and just doesn't fit. And saplings could actually fall from trees without them being cut down? Oddly enough trees reproduce while alive.
That one is one I agree on. The way trees are done on MC are far better than here. Minus the wind feature Craig added, looks cool swaying about.

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Possibly more to be added. Please be respectful in the comments and feel free to agree/disagree and add your comments on the thread, Thanks!

I respect you as a person and player Nefty, so don't take these comments to heart if they are negative. It's just my opinions as well.

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Re: Survival/Dig Deep Overhaul
« Reply #34 on: January 18, 2016, 07:15:33 PM »
I respect you as a person and player Nefty, so don't take these comments to heart if they are negative. It's just my opinions as well.

Argh! You wrote in my quote! Now quoting you is hard!

I disagree, because I have played my fair share of BOTH games. While Survival can be a bit more fun on MC, it lacks an economic system as far as pricing per item/block. You need villagers for an economy, setting up that is difficult enough as is. Let's say you start a map and make your entire empire on there. HOURS of grinding, only to find out...you have NO villages. And it has happened to me before, or even worse...only one villager. Then you are screwed. Even more so if you have a difficulty on. Zombies could obliterate that entire village before you even find them. TMF has an economic system that is convenient. Albeit, some may say it's easy...well yes, if you are smart enough to use certain key items/tricks to make cash. But even so, the better stuff on the market cost A LOT and quickly drains that fortune you so lovingly amassed earlier. To be fair, both games economy is messed up to a degree. One day, that may be fixed. But I still prefer TMF over MC sometimes.

I'm not entirely against the idea of the block and item shops, in fact they're really unique! My problem comes with how cheap blocks and items actually are! They need to be jacked up in vanilla so it makes more sense to make things yourself than purchase them. Obviously if you have your own map you can economize shops and set prices as you see fit, that's how you can setup your own economy. I still believe the system is too easily exploited.

I do agree, but I find that the biomes are suitable for me. I think, sometimes, Minecraft can OVER-DO biomes and make them too....bizarre. But I have to throw in my agreement on this one.

Yay! 1 for 2!

Understandable, but that's the price you pay for DD. I personally LOVE IT. I revel in the fun of hunting down that next blueprint, hoping it's a new pickaxe or something else of great importance. While it's not for everyone, it does give the game mode a challenge not seen in other voxel games.

Yes it does, I don't think blueprints should be tossed entirely, but definitely reformed.

Well, in MC you don't even have a map to help you find more ores within the earth. But I disagree, while there is a nice variety of cave systems in MC I enjoy the type of caves in TMF are fun to explore. Some expand into different systems with chests, others just go further down and wrap back around. That's the fun of Dig Deep. The cave systems are much better in that mode. Even so, the deeper you go, the more ores you find as well. It all almost seems to be based on chance. But I remember being in Marble layers and finding a large amount of Platinum and such.

I believe the map is close to cheating. A handy feature yes, but being able to see which blocks are where, 5 deep within a wall? That seems rather unfair. I think the chests should be placed as if it were a person playing, not in an obvious offset cave dominated by spiders. I've been on marble layer and found jack squat. If its that randomized it might be a problem. I know MC has like 3-6 diamonds per chunk? Not saying it has to be that accurate, but id rather not have my gameplay experience decided entirely by the maps genreation

Well with the re-vamp that's what happens. Before hand it was a bit few and far between in which you had to jump to get to the next tier of tools and weapons. Even so, it's pretty decent thus far. It helps expand the levels into different blocks and other items. Before you had no reason to level past 60-70. Now the levels require you to get to almost 100 to use EVERYTHING. Pretty useful way to fill in the void.

It should expand all the way to the max, yes! But when it takes 20-30 to upgrade the level of tool or block placed it becomes more tedious than need be.

This one is, more or less, based on opinion. I suppose it could be better but I don't see the problem with it. At least it doesn't spawn floating landmasses. lol

That's my point exactly, its too uniform! While floating landmasses is not realistic yes, it makes the map and gameplay much more exciting! Ive built castles on those floating landmasses! Instead of miles upon miles of grassy hills, maybe giant patches of dirt, sinkhole, Large Rocks! A lake? Idk, the generation is too much the same.

That one is one I agree on. The way trees are done on MC are far better than here. Minus the wind feature Craig added, looks cool swaying about.

2 for 7! Ill take it 8)
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Re: Survival/Dig Deep Overhaul
« Reply #35 on: January 18, 2016, 07:23:37 PM »

I'm not entirely against the idea of the block and item shops, in fact they're really unique! My problem comes with how cheap blocks and items actually are! They need to be jacked up in vanilla so it makes more sense to make things yourself than purchase them. Obviously if you have your own map you can economize shops and set prices as you see fit, that's how you can setup your own economy. I still believe the system is too easily exploited.

Oh I agree, it can be easily exploited. Especially with the Ice Block method. But it's not as bad as I would have imagined. Remember the books method? xD

Yay! 1 for 2!
C'mon Nefty, I wasn't going to discredit EVERYTHING. lol


Yes it does, I don't think blueprints should be tossed entirely, but definitely reformed.
One thing though, you can guarantee each layer possesses a type of pickax that will get you closer to the bottom. ;)

I believe the map is close to cheating. A handy feature yes, but being able to see which blocks are where, 5 deep within a wall? That seems rather unfair. I think the chests should be placed as if it were a person playing, not in an obvious offset cave dominated by spiders. I've been on marble layer and found jack squat. If its that randomized it might be a problem. I know MC has like 3-6 diamonds per chunk? Not saying it has to be that accurate, but id rather not have my gameplay experience decided entirely by the maps genreation
Definitely gotcha. One thing you can rest assure, once you reach lower levels you will find CRAP loads of Rubies, Sapphires, and Titanium. It's all about knowing where to look. It's almost a science/art form. lol Trub, Liam, and myself know where to go. But we're also freaks over DD maps. :P

It should expand all the way to the max, yes! But when it takes 20-30 to upgrade the level of tool or block placed it becomes more tedious than need be.
Yes, that much is understandable. Definitely. Like with Runescape, their tier expansion is between a 10 level variety. So from 10 levels you go to Iron to steel, then another 10 and you are at black armor, then Mithril, etc.

That's my point exactly, its too uniform! While floating landmasses is not realistic yes, it makes the map and gameplay much more exciting! Ive built castles on those floating landmasses! Instead of miles upon miles of grassy hills, maybe giant patches of dirt, sinkhole, Large Rocks! A lake? Idk, the generation is too much the same.
That is true, suppose I wasn't thinking all the way through before responding. I am that type of builder too. I tend to do FANTASTIC builds on occasion, on odd landmasses as well. It's just all on opinion at the time, I should say. lol

Nefty

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Re: Survival/Dig Deep Overhaul
« Reply #36 on: January 18, 2016, 07:32:04 PM »
Now I shall respond inside the quote to make it tough for you to read, and tough to quote!

Oh I agree, it can be easily exploited. Especially with the Ice Block method. But it's not as bad as I would have imagined. Remember the books method? xD

Yes there are still exploits....

C'mon Nefty, I wasn't going to discredit EVERYTHING. lol

I wanted to call you out on somethind, I was disappointed your arguments were somewhat valid :/ xD

One thing though, you can guarantee each layer possesses a type of pickax that will get you closer to the bottom. ;)

I think each set of tools (wood pic, wood hatchet, wood shovel, etc...) Get its own blueprint to unlock the entire tier.

Definitely gotcha. One thing you can rest assure, once you reach lower levels you will find CRAP loads of Rubies, Sapphires, and Titanium. It's all about knowing where to look. It's almost a science/art form. lol Trub, Liam, and myself know where to go. But we're also freaks over DD maps. :P

I love it when .000345% of the community knows how to play DD well, xD, but seriously I can never find anything below the depth of 1500 without my map on.

Yes, that much is understandable. Definitely. Like with Runescape, their tier expansion is between a 10 level variety. So from 10 levels you go to Iron to steel, then another 10 and you are at black armor, then Mithril, etc.

Ill see you in goblin house, I'm trying to get my strength up xD

That is true, suppose I wasn't thinking all the way through before responding. I am that type of builder too. I tend to do FANTASTIC builds on occasion, on odd landmasses as well. It's just all on opinion at the time, I should say. lol

Link
^^^^
You never see builds like this in TM, they all have to be terraformed by hand by the player. Extra time and most people lose motivation.

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Re: Survival/Dig Deep Overhaul
« Reply #37 on: January 18, 2016, 07:47:47 PM »
Yes there are still exploits....
WEll....that was more or less a lower tier type of processing. Taking one base material and continuously changing it to further add to it's value. Again though, the Ice Block method is way more lucrative. You make over 40k per 100 stack. O:

I wanted to call you out on something, I was disappointed your arguments were somewhat valid :/ xD
Not throwing around BS here my friend, I give valid arguments no matter what. :D


I think each set of tools (wood pic, wood hatchet, wood shovel, etc...) Get its own blueprint to unlock the entire tier.
Might be, but I noticed each layer I travel to furthers my tools progression as far as blueprints. Might just be me. lol


I love it when .000345% of the community knows how to play DD well, xD, but seriously I can never find anything below the depth of 1500 without my map on.
Hey man, just play with us sometime. I can show you cool tricks I learn from Craig and Trub. Liam never taught me anything. :(


Ill see you in goblin house, I'm trying to get my strength up xD
Gimme 10 hours of your time, I bet I can boost you to level 79. I was once a grinder, I know HALF of what I am talking about.

You never see builds like this in TM, they all have to be terraformed by hand by the player. Extra time and most people lose motivation.
I know, you basically have to do Creative or be as weird as Trub and I am. Do everything on DD and people ask if the map is on "creative" or not. lol

Nefty...I thought we were friends. You done screwed me man! :( I had to edit the crap out of this. xD

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Re: Survival/Dig Deep Overhaul
« Reply #38 on: January 18, 2016, 08:04:55 PM »
GG for the oversized quotes guys ^.^

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Re: Survival/Dig Deep Overhaul
« Reply #39 on: January 19, 2016, 02:33:27 PM »
I was writing a script for a new video, when I started thinking about the shops impact on total miner. You touched on this somewhat in your post, Nefty, so I'll just reply here.

Part of the reason why I feel that there is a sort of blandness to survival is because the shops inherently discourage the aspects of the survival gamemode that make it great. Exploring.

Why venture into deep underground caverns or immersive landscapes when you can obtain everything in the game by mining straight down for an hour?

I think this should be taken into consideration when there is a survival overhaul, further down the line. Reward players for venturing out into the world, overcoming challenges, battling creatures, and raiding generated structures, and not so much for mining the same block for hours on end and processing the materials.


               

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Re: Survival/Dig Deep Overhaul
« Reply #40 on: January 20, 2016, 04:08:53 PM »
I have an idea for shops, Maybe in survival & dig deep all shops bought or made have a certain amount of money say...24k upon getting it. When a player buys an item it will add money to the shop & when they sell items to it the shop will give them money until it runs out in which case the shop won't take it, rather then the shop having an unlimited supply ^-^
What am i even talking about

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Re: Survival/Dig Deep Overhaul
« Reply #41 on: January 20, 2016, 04:47:51 PM »

I was writing a script for a new video, when I started thinking about the shops impact on total miner. You touched on this somewhat in your post, Nefty, so I'll just reply here.

Part of the reason why I feel that there is a sort of blandness to survival is because the shops inherently discourage the aspects of the survival gamemode that make it great. Exploring.
In survival, yes. However, you take into consideration the exploration needed to find all the blue prints in Dig Deep and it's on point. You MUST go everywhere. It handles survival status in a different way. Survival itself is as you said...bland. Simply because EVERYTHING is already there, minus the harder difficulties where they take away the shops.

Why venture into deep underground caverns or immersive landscapes when you can obtain everything in the game by mining straight down for an hour?
Again, with Dig Deep you don't have that issue. this should mostly be directed towards Survival purely.

I think this should be taken into consideration when there is a survival overhaul, further down the line. Reward players for venturing out into the world, overcoming challenges, battling creatures, and raiding generated structures, and not so much for mining the same block for hours on end and processing the materials.
I do believe the Quest update should handle this issue. But I agree, that much more immersion would be a little more satisfying for the player.

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Re: Survival/Dig Deep Overhaul
« Reply #42 on: January 20, 2016, 05:03:39 PM »
In survival, yes. However, you take into consideration the exploration needed to find all the blue prints in Dig Deep and it's on point. You MUST go everywhere. It handles survival status in a different way. Survival itself is as you said...bland. Simply because EVERYTHING is already there, minus the harder difficulties where they take away the shops.

Or stare at a spinning blue arrow until you come across one. You know, another cheap factor like the map.

Again, with Dig Deep you don't have that issue. this should mostly be directed towards Survival purely.

Yes you do, you can acquire the same amount of wealth by mining straight down for an hour.
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Re: Survival/Dig Deep Overhaul
« Reply #43 on: January 20, 2016, 05:13:14 PM »
Or stare at a spinning blue arrow until you come across one. You know, another cheap factor like the map.
Well, if there was a way to turn off the arrow it would make finding them harder and less of ...cheap factor. ;)

Yes you do, you can acquire the same amount of wealth by mining straight down for an hour.
Start a DD map and try digging straight down. I guarantee this is a wrong statement. lol

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Re: Survival/Dig Deep Overhaul
« Reply #44 on: January 20, 2016, 07:31:19 PM »
In survival, yes. However, you take into consideration the exploration needed to find all the blue prints in Dig Deep and it's on point. You MUST go everywhere. It handles survival status in a different way. Survival itself is as you said...bland. Simply because EVERYTHING is already there, minus the harder difficulties where they take away the shops.

Hence why I said survival. Lol.

The same principle still impacts DD because there are no generated structures, but it isn't as significant.

Again, with Dig Deep you don't have that issue. this should mostly be directed towards Survival purely.

Hence why I said SURVIVAL lol.

I do believe the Quest update should handle this issue. But I agree, that much more immersion would be a little more satisfying for the player.

If the quest update comes with generated structures and significant changes to the economy then yes.


               

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